[Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:07:09] * ervin uses the hammer and opens the session then [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:07:22] * PovAddict jumps awake [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:07:23] I'll keep the log and post them afterward [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:07:58] * valir cries as got his finger hammered [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:08:00] Join djszapi has joined this channel (~lpapp@kde/developer/lpapp). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:08:02] could someone mention the meeting in the topic? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:08:17] Join aracon^ has joined this channel (~michael@145.118.88.111). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:08:17] so, if everyone agrees I think the aim of this meeting should be to get a clearer picture of where we are [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:08:41] and also to start pushing tasks to people to move things forward faster :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:08:44] Topic svuorela sets the channel topic to "KDE Frameworks Meeting in progress. ERVIN is chairing.". [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:08:45] Nick aracon^ is now known as aracon-. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:09:20] makes sese [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:09:25] for those who didn't look yet, I opened a section in the community wiki which aims at fulfilling those goals longer term [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:09:27] * PovAddict forgot this channel wasn't +t [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:09:39] http://community.kde.org/Frameworks [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:10:01] it's likely incomplete, so if you know something is missing, please talk about it now [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:10:22] for sure the cmake epic is incomplete but I volunteered alexn to complete it :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:10:31] * dfaure just updated the status of QTemporaryDir to "done" :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:10:38] him and steveire have the best overview [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:10:44] dfaure: yay! cookies for you :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:10:47] from experience with other communities, I'd say: make sure the wiki states the obvious too [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:11:00] ervin: yes, sure [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:11:07] PovAddict: could you elaborate on that please? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:11:12] currently those wiki pages seem to be status-tracking for people who already know almost everything that is going on [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:11:15] e.g. does the wiki explain what "staging" is for? ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:11:33] what a tier is? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:11:40] I'm also wondaring what "epic" means [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:11:41] actually this one: http://community.kde.org/KDE_Core/Platform_11/Buildsystem/FindFilesSurvey gives a relatively complete overview over the state of upstreaming stuff to cmake [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:11:49] Quit admiral0 has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:11:52] tiers were documented in the randa meeting [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:11:56] oh wow, alexn on IRC [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:11:57] * PovAddict waves [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:12:00] Join blueck has joined this channel (~bb@p5B36D0DB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:12:01] valir: buzzword from those new software development method [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:12:02] dfaure: right, should be added to the kdelibs split policy section [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:12:12] dfaure: sure, are they documented somewhere not in your head? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:12:20] tsdgeos: yes [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:12:21] tsdgeos: it's in the policy section [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:12:23] ok [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:12:24] tsdgeos: ok, tks, I know now how to search [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:12:25] * tsdgeos rtfm [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:12:42] * tsdgeos absents for 5 min [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:12:47] * dfaure is a bit confused by the word "epic" too [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:13:01] yes, please make sure you read the doc which is there before asking to add stuff [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:13:01] * alexn has never heard it before in this context [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:13:04] * valir suddenly not feeling alone [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:13:14] (tiers for instance) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:13:26] can the current documentation take someone from "KDE Frameworks is about kdelibs5 or something" into understanding what the hell is going on? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:13:27] could be made more proeminant though [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:13:45] I'm ok with people creating more content to make them more obvious of course :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:13:48] seems epic means on-going effort? my dictionary says it's a long narrative poem :-) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:13:59] dfaure: both are right :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:14:02] dfaure: the same for me [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:14:25] PovAddict: there won't be a kdelibs5 ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:14:42] ervin: sure? ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:14:48] ervin: exactly! see how confused people can be? :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:14:52] hence the different name, but ok with something explaining the replacement [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:15:04] PovAddict: you volunteer adding a page with this kind of QA? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:15:11] Marquel: yes, since it will be a bunch of separate frameworks [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:15:13] PovAddict: you seem to have the right questions :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:15:26] I don't have the answers though, but sure :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:15:40] PovAddict: that's ok, just ask dfaure, aseigo or me as you go [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:15:47] (not tonight but over time) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:16:06] yeah, I don't have time now, I'm already being irresponsible being here in the meeting (should be doing other stuff) :P [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:16:20] so, what's the state of the kdelibs frameworks branch ? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:16:38] dfaure: following qt in that regard? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:16:56] alexn: partially splitted into separate frameworks, but not yet [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:16:59] alexn: http://community.kde.org/Frameworks/Epics/Splitting_kdelibs [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:17:24] it's kind of the standard answer, I want that tracked on that page so we know [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:17:31] currently only one framework ready [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:17:40] more in the work or missing maintainers [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:17:43] ervin: before we get too far into this discussion .. what are we hoping to achieve this evening? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:17:46] a lot not even started [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:18:04] hi everybody :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:18:08] (to start with goals so we know when we're done, or if we've got more to do when we collectively fall over, and to avoid topics that don't lead there) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:18:32] aseigo: make sure everyone knows the state, we clearly miss knowledge sharing, and have an action plan to improve on that and be able to distribute tasks [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:18:34] Join aiaco has joined this channel (~aiaco@net-2-33-103-235.cust.dsl.teletu.it). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:18:37] (we fail at it) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:19:14] ervin: ok .. we're starting with "make sure everyone knows the state"? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:19:15] I will only be around for another 40 mins. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:19:33] So anything needing my specific input might be useful to bring up before then. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:19:34] aseigo: yep [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:20:07] aseigo: as alexn question shows it's not obvious to everyone what everyone else is doing [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:20:12] http://titanpad.com/kUntBqlYrw [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:20:14] to build up on that [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:20:19] Join giucam has joined this channel (~giulio@adsl-ull-223-255.49-151.net24.it). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:20:28] kdelibs splitting: not much progress [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:20:34] ^ I hereby declare that the etherpad for the meeting (unless there was one already) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:20:41] Join lazy_ has joined this channel (~quassel@host83-80-dynamic.37-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:20:45] btw, for Frameworks/Epics/New_Runtime_Organization i have a list of things that need moving and doing [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:20:49] (in zanshin btw ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:21:00] i'm happy to take that one on [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:21:03] cmake: I've a hard time to know, alexn can enlighten us on that [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:21:16] qt5 merging is where most of the work is going right now [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:21:18] bambee: want to add your name in front of libkcoreaddon on http://community.kde.org/Frameworks/Epics/Splitting_kdelibs ? e.g. you said you'd look at unit-tests, and we can talk about deps later on [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:21:19] feel free to take notes (I do *not* declare myself the official note-taker!) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:21:20] Quit apol has left this server (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:21:41] ervin: you want me to give a short overview over the state of the cmake-related stuff now ? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:21:43] ervin: What is the deadline for the Qt5 merging? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:22:06] aseigo: you can go ahead, not high priority yet, but I expect it to jump higher in the list once we get more progress on kdelibs [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:22:16] alexn: yes please that'd be awesome [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:22:16] unormal: it was pushed from November 2011 (which was scary!!) to march/april 2012 or so, not sure about the exact deadline [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:22:25] everyone else give some space to alexn, thanks [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:22:32] dfaure: Thx, So there is time. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:22:39] Or "more time" [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:22:47] unormal: Not so much time that it's comfortable. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:22:48] so, me and steveire have been working on it with full power since Randa [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:22:56] what have we achieved since then: [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:23:01] I haven't seen a Qt5.0 feature freeze date discussed. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:23:02] unormal: yes but getting stuff into qt5 takes a lot of time and effort, actually, especially when ossi does the reviewing :-) hi ossi ;-) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:23:12] But probably that's not really very far away [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:23:12] :P [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:23:12] ;-) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:23:22] * since cmake 2.8.6 automoc is in cmake [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:23:54] * the package/repository extra-cmake-modules has been created [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:24:13] * there has been no release yet of extra-cmake-modules (e-c-m) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:24:22] qt5 feature freeze was mentioned to be januaryish afaik at qt devdays... [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:24:42] * ervin suddenly realizes what that ecm he's seen lately means... [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:24:52] :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:25:00] all the cmake files we have in kdelibs/cmake/modules/ has to be reviewed, upstreamed into cmake, uostreamed into e-c-m or removed [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:25:03] ervin: now you can document ecm on the wiki :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:25:14] the status of that is here: http://community.kde.org/KDE_Core/Platform_11/Buildsystem/FindFilesSurvey [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:25:17] * Qt5 now installs config files. No need to have a FindQt5.cmake [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:25:30] dfaure: btw, the qsavefile thingie is constantly slipping on my todo list. want to pick it up from creator? then you can have me complaining about my own code. :D [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:25:46] short version: the Find-modules from kdelibs, which also exist in cmake, have all been synced into cmake [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:25:48] ossi: yes, as you can see on http://community.kde.org/Frameworks/Epics/Qt_5.0_Merging it's next on my list [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:25:49] ossi: please leave some space to the cmake peeps [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:26:07] several macros are not necessary anymore, since they have been merged into cmake in some form [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:26:24] steveire: how will we pick which qt5 prefix to use, btw? with CMAKE_MODULE_PATH? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:26:28] the incompatible changes (so far) are listed here: http://techbase.kde.org/Development/ECM_SourceIncompatChanges [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:26:33] CMAKE_PREFIX_PATH [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:26:47] err yeah [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:27:02] there is still enough work left [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:27:10] * dfaure can't get used to PREFIX_* not being about the install prefix ;-) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:27:11] I'll say some more too [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:27:33] Some things change in the transition to Qt5 for cmake variables [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:27:41] Quit buntstift has left this server. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:27:59] like figuring out ugly details, like how to deal with Debian multiarch, pkg-config on Windows, where to put all the specialized macros we have in KDE4Macros.cmake, how to deal with install directories [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:28:00] Because Qt5 is split up, there is now things like find_package(Qt5Core) find_oackage(Qt5Gui) etc. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:28:52] Additionally, some cmake variables are changed, such as QT_QTCORE_LIBRARIES -> Qt5Core_LIBRARIES -- following cmake convention of using the package name [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:29:00] That's sed portable though [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:29:07] the big thing (as in much work, not necessarily complicated) is to get the necessary find-modules into e-c-m, reviewed and cleaned up so it can be released as a package [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:29:16] right [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:29:26] something which seems easy to distribute in small tasks though [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:29:45] requires to make an initial checklist for those reviews and guidance for cleanup [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:29:47] There's been more recently on the buildsystem list to know more. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:29:52] or to organize a "get it done" day(s) to power through it [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:30:00] yep [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:30:08] ervin: basically it's the cmake coding style wiki page on techbase [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:30:09] ervin: checklist is a good idea [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:30:16] http://community.kde.org/KDE_Core/Platform_11/Buildsystem/FindFilesSurvey << Todo list [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:30:17] people with cmake experience could help there... PovAddict, afiestas, kdepepo.... [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:30:18] Join skelet has joined this channel (~skelet@p5.eregie.pub.ro). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:30:45] Join yoann21 has joined this channel (~quassel@80.214.0.24). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:30:54] I have a slightly different idea [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:31:22] Alternative todo list: `stephen@hal:~/dev/src/extra-cmake-modules{master}$ ls attic/modules` [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:31:28] how about that: we do not simply go through the huge list of files, but instead we do it modularized library by modularized library [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:31:52] well everything used by kdelibs itself is obviously needed first. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:31:54] i.e. if itemmodels is ready to be separated, let's check what Find-modules it needs, and let's get those into e-c-m [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:32:03] dfaure: this is 140 files [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:32:05] or so [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:32:06] sounds like a good idea [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:32:11] kdelibs doesn't use 140 files [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:32:14] it *ships* 140 files. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:32:17] we'd leave behind what's not needed anymore [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:32:23] agrees with alexn proposal [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:32:33] alexn: good idea... [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:32:37] so, something to add to the "done" definition of the splitting [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:32:45] solid seems to need: FindFlex.cmake FindHUpnp.cmake FindUDev.cmake, which are not yet in ecm [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:33:07] alexn: if we had a step-by-step of what to do (such as "make it conforms to ") would help enable others to work on it, though. i wouldn't really know where to begin, but if given 3-4 steps to follow :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:33:08] perhaps we should have a library module checklist, including a find modules item [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:33:12] steveire: are little factoids like that documented/listed somewhere? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:33:17] steveire: FindFLEX.cmake is in cmake [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:33:20] heh, what valir said I guess :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:33:30] see http://techbase.kde.org/Development/ECM_SourceIncompatChanges#FindFLEX.cmake [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:33:32] PovAddict: that's right [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:33:40] PovAddict: In the output of attempting to build solid standalone [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:33:56] (or grepping for find_package) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:34:07] http://techbase.kde.org/Policies/CMake_Coding_Style [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:34:16] step 1: make sure you have cmake v #.#.# installed; step 2: read through cmake coding guidelines here ; step 3: to process a module, ... [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:34:19] Join jstaniek has joined this channel (~jarek@afij120.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:34:20] the FindFLEX in CMake is much better than the one in kdelibs, IIRC the kdelibs one only gives you ${FLEX_EXECUTABLE} while the CMake one adds a COMPILE_FLEX() macro that sets proper deps and stuff [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:34:25] alexn: ok, so that derives this big list of files from a cmake effort, to a splitting effort, sounds good to me [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:34:40] Join simgunz has joined this channel (~quassel@93.48.241.255). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:35:02] Quit dakerfp has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:35:06] Topic PovAddict sets the channel topic to "KDE Frameworks Meeting in progress. ERVIN is chairing. Meeting notes: http://titanpad.com/kUntBqlYrw". [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:35:16] PovAddict, steveire: FindFlex.cmake is also listed here http://community.kde.org/KDE_Core/Platform_11/Buildsystem/FindFilesSurvey as "merge into cmake, DONE" [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:35:16] alexn: could you add that as an extra bullet on the done definition in http://community.kde.org/Frameworks/Epics/Splitting_kdelibs [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:35:26] linking to the relevant documents [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:35:46] actually, linking to a checklist format type of document would be top-notch [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:35:51] as aseigo hinted [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:36:07] ervin: I don't see a "DONE" definition on that page [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:36:20] ah, ok found it [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:36:30] beginning of "Existing Frameworks" section [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:36:38] (for those still looking for it) ;-) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:37:17] ok, lemme summarize the cmake status as I understand it, and correct me where I'm wrong [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:37:35] it would be nice if the developer who is working on getting a library split out could contact k-c-d, k-f-d or kde-buildsystem with a list of Find-modules he needs [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:38:01] alexn: let's try and limit that to one list. which would you prefer? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:38:02] alexn: that one should also be put as a bullet on the checklist [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:38:20] for cmake most of the important api changes are done, the work left is either part of the splitting effort (and so you'll give us guidance with a checklist) or under the hood important details [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:38:46] aseigo: I'd prefer kde-buildsystem, but k-f-d or k-c-d would be also ok. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:39:10] alexn: kde-buildsystem it is then. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:39:18] ervin: I don't agree completely on the "under the hood" [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:39:22] yep, kde-buildsystem on your checklist then [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:39:30] alexn: so more api changes to come? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:39:30] Other API changes in cmake may only appear in version 2.8.8 (unscheduled) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:39:41] yes [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:39:48] Join sirdeiu has joined this channel (~quassel@server1.bydeiu.net). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:39:52] ok, then my question is who will track that? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:39:59] Quit aracon- has left this server (Quit: Konversation terminated!). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:40:07] http://techbase.kde.org/Development/ECM_SourceIncompatChanges [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:40:24] whoever changes something (i.e. until now steveire and me) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:40:30] ok [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:40:48] so you'll fix the frameworks which were done and suddenly breaks? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:40:56] you mean that ? no. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:41:17] It's not a break. Just a more modern way of using cmake, which we're aiming for [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:41:21] That's impossible for me to do. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:41:31] steveire: ok I see [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:41:33] well not "you", but "the one who makes incompatible changes" [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:41:47] it probably rests on the shoulders of the module maintainer (which, for the duration of the spliting is by default the splitter?) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:42:02] aseigo: that's what I'm trying to know [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:42:09] we need a way to let them know [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:42:21] kde-frameworks? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:42:27] yep [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:42:28] it's where we should all be, right? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:42:42] but my point is that right now we're not aware of such changes [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:42:46] dfaure: yes. all I am able to do is to document the changes, fixing everything which broke by that is beyond what I can do in the time I have. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:43:01] so I'd say everytime that happens, the person making such a change cmake side should warn on k-f-d [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:43:19] during the KDE3->4 porting Laurent Montel did most of that work. He was working full time on it. I have a few hours in the evenings. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:43:21] alexn: ok, documenting and warning is already good [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:43:42] so that we don't discover after the facts, I don't expect people to track those wiki pages [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:43:43] then I can do that kind of stuff, of nobody else does. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:44:06] (I'm half time on KDE/Qt work, with a fast pc) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:44:20] laurent just got a fast pc too, maybe he'll be abe to help again :-) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:44:32] ok, so on the CMake page, on the definition of done we'll add a "warn k-f-d of api changes" [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:44:45] and people (including dfaure) will see them [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:44:47] By the way, there will be many things people will be able to do 'pre-porting' in their kde4 apps. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:45:03] Quit annma has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:45:37] We can have a guide and scripts for 'pre-porting' (upgrading cmake version and using its features, using QIcon instead of KIcon where appropriate etc) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:46:01] And also guides and scripts for the rest (depending on Qt5, with what that means) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:46:07] steveire: clearly missing right now from the Frameworks section of the wiki, that's one more action we need to tackle [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:46:16] steveire: they can't use new cmake features as long as they do not depend on the frameworks branch yet [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:46:32] Sure they can. Even as a porting step that they don't release. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:46:38] alexn: they can use new *cmake* features, not cmake macros from frameworks [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:46:45] yeah, people don't usually do that though (pre-porting). In qt3->qt4 there were also many things people could do, but I've rarely seen it done. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:46:53] What I'm talking about is making the porting task into several smaller steps [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:46:54] alexn: or is cmake 2.8.7 unusable with kdelibs4? :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:46:56] alexn: they can switch to cmake automoc, kdelibs4 [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:46:56] yeah I wouldn't expect pre-porting [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:47:02] we need to document the porting still [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:47:08] agreed [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:47:13] alexn: I mean "they can switch to cmake automoc, still using kdelibs4." [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:47:20] they can't in a branch which will become the next KDE SC release. Because in kdelibs4 we still require cmake 2.6.4, so there no newer features must be used [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:47:21] "people won't do it anyway" is pessimistic and self-fullfilling [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:47:21] ervin: that's an actionable item :) documenting porting [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:47:34] aseigo: yep, it's on the list I'm writing here ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:47:38] aseigo: adding to notes [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:47:52] * aseigo notes we have http://community.kde.org/Plasma/PortingTolibplasma2 [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:48:15] aseigo: yep, it's needed on a per framework basis as well indeed [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:48:21] cmake is more transversal [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:48:22] PovAddict: it's not pessimistic, but plain realistic [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:48:25] which is scarier than it looks, but it's pretty "bad" ... qml in and qgraphicsview out is brutal for us [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:48:39] Ok. I'm off. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:48:41] Have fun [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:48:42] valir: my point stands that it's self-fullfilling [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:48:53] well, i think we can all agree that we need documentation, and if we point people to it early and often that people will do what they will do and we can help encourage them [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:48:54] alexn: right. I was rather thinking of "in 2 years", and "for apps not part of KDE SC". [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:49:03] no more need be said about that imho in this meeting.. let's keep moving [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:49:07] anything else on cmake land? I'd like to move on to qt5 for our round of status [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:49:11] hold on a bit [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:49:16] aseigo: stop reading my mind :p [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:49:17] ok [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:49:39] Quit steveire has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:49:44] did we actually make the list of goals / agenda items for the meeting? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:49:54] that was suggested early in the meeting but I think we jumped straight into cmake after that [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:49:56] PovAddict: yes, at the begining (ish) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:50:03] PovAddict: it was basically this: [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:50:15] next would be Qt5 merging ? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:50:21] * a round of "where we are at" status reports [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:50:26] alexn: when meeting is over and if you still have time for tonight, let's take a short chat on cmake vs multiarch [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:51:17] * build an action plan [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:51:19] svuorela: I don't have time afterwards, still have to prepare stuff for tomorrow (have to get up 5:30 :-/ ) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:51:20] * distribute tasks [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:51:22] so, next, qt5 merging status report [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:51:37] alexn: erf... [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:51:38] -> http://community.kde.org/Frameworks/Epics/Qt_5.0_Merging [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:51:38] dfaure, ossi: please enlighten us [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:51:56] the wiki seems fairly complete for that effort [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:52:07] the big unknown is, what's the deadline to get it all done? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:52:20] ossi: do you know of the qt5 feature freeze deadline? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:52:27] the thing is, this *is* a big unknown ... [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:52:29] [17:23] unormal: it was pushed from November 2011 (which was scary!!) to march/april 2012 or so, not sure about the exact deadline [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:52:45] Quit JohnFlux_ has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:52:56] PovAddict: that's release dates. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:53:03] nah, feature freezes [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:53:04] Join JohnFlux_ has joined this channel (~johnflux@konversation/developer/JohnFlux). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:53:04] oh [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:53:26] anyway, if ossi says there's no date set yet, then there's no date set yet ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:53:50] so let's just keep going to get as much stuff into qt5 as possible -- maybe not just me though ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:54:02] yep, so we can either power through it now, or hope for the better (which is what we're doing right now) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:54:03] so the wiki page is complete and correct, i.e. this is everything we'd like to get in ? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:54:14] too bad John Layt isn't here, I'm very curious about the status of that. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:54:26] (especially the i18n() vs tr() issue) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:54:29] alexn: afaik yes, but that's a good question [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:54:37] /summon jlayt [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:54:40] no I think there are more things we might want to get in [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:54:53] dfaure: that's more a thing for Chusslove. john strategically rejected this topic [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:55:02] dfaure: they definitely need to be in the wiki asap, means we're working on wrong ground here [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:55:08] ossi: ah, I see [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:55:13] dfaure: to be honest i don't think the i18n/tr is being tackled by anyone [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:55:20] well that is a big issue [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:55:25] tsdgeos: my feeling as well [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:55:29] Chusslove specifically said he did not want to rewrite it just for the fun again [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:55:32] afair [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:55:34] john is really too silent lately [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:55:40] I don't want to keep having the issue of "I'm writing a new app, should I use tr or i18n". [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:55:49] dfaure: +1 [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:56:01] I want to write a qt app, and at some point to use whichever framework I need, e.g. libkarchive etc. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:56:14] well, you can use the good or the bad framework [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:56:20] I think there were long discussions about the translation stuff on the Qt5 list with ossi. ossi, can you tell us more about it ? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:56:26] and that shouldn't make such an app "a bad kde app because it doesn't use i18n...." [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:56:26] dfaure: thing is, we can't just remove tr() anyway (compat constraint), and whatever new we produce, it will be more like i18n() [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:56:40] definitions of good and bad obviously vary depending on who you ask [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:56:47] dfaure: so a get together on that topic with chusslove, ossi, you, layt... would be useful? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:56:48] tsdgeos: and that's what sucks [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:57:18] tsdgeos: the "us vs them" thing has to stop, it has led to too much duplication / splitting [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:57:20] that's for you all that want to stop writing kde apps [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:57:26] ossi: what prevents using/adopting i18n? has that been examined and discarded for reasons? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:57:27] i should make some formal replies to Chusslove's epic mails from a few months ago. i only told him "i mostly agree, just go ahead" [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:57:29] i'm fine with using i18n :-) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:57:39] tsdgeos: i'd like both. thank you very much. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:57:47] no, i18n as-is doesn't cut it [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:57:54] aseigo: then volunteer :-) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:58:31] having read the giant i18n thread in k-c-d a few months ago, I have to say there's enough material for an entire meeting dedicated to i18n :/ [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:58:39] yeah [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:58:48] yep, so has to happen [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:59:09] * ervin adds a task to make that happen on his paper list [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:59:15] ok, let's skip that topic for now [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:59:20] yep [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:59:22] which implies we can't discuss all the details of i18n in this meeting :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:59:29] [dfaure reading minds again] [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:59:37] the other biggie is: what's missing on the tracking page? how do we make sure it's all there? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:59:43] I'll try to identify the full list of things that should go in ot qt [Sunday 04 December 2011] [21:59:44] dfaure: you seemed to imply there's more [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:00:02] What about QPrinter stuff and jlayt? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:00:02] well it's a vague feeling ;) but I'll re-read the spreadsheets from randa, plus poke around the code a bit more. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:00:19] ok, adding that as a task as well [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:00:41] unormal: different topic (not about k code that should go into qt), and jlayt isn't here to answer anyway [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:00:43] unormal: QPrinter is moved out of QtBase & QtWidgets, so it can wait to 5.1 [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:00:58] Ah I see, sorry then. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:01:07] yep, it's already on our 5.1 page iirc [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:01:10] ossi: do you still have plans for KProcess/KShell features into Qt? And/or KUser? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:01:15] Quit thomasj has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:01:30] sure i have *plans* ... ^^ [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:01:32] Join renards has joined this channel (~fox@158.71.73.86.rev.sfr.net). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:01:36] never thought about kuser, though [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:01:45] well if you make the plans more precise I can do the work, like with QSaveFile... [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:01:57] oh there's QLockFile that I'd like to add, too... [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:02:15] As for i18n, I actually wanted to push it to Gettext, even wrote a detailed proposal of features (based on the epic kcd i18n thread...): [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:02:24] http://nedohodnik.net/gettextbis/ [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:02:24] dfaure: we can do that. you only need to grab my attention in a strategically good moment ^^ [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:02:48] Unfortunatelly, it didn't garner any interest (zero remarks...). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:03:14] Chusslove: ... from gettext devels? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:03:26] Right, or from anyone else. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:03:28] Quit jpetso has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:03:32] E.g. someone on the Gnome side or so. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:03:32] that's because your emails are probably far too verbose ;p [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:03:43] ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:03:51] Ah, this one was very short :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:03:57] Chusslove: holy shit, this is a frigging thesis ^^ [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:04:00] ...because the document was very long. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:04:02] LOL [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:04:04] hahha [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:04:47] probably took minutes for everyone to *download* the email, let alone read it ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:05:04] clearly, if the i18n stuff stalls, we need to trick Chusslove into writing documentation instead [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:05:24] This thing has about 25.000 words. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:05:26] Join jpetso has joined this channel (~jpetso@24.52.222.36). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:05:31] ok, confirms we have to get the interested people together to move it forward [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:05:46] The documentation for a command-line l10n-related thingy I maintain, I wrote a 90.000 word doc... [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:05:52] ossi: you could help there, correct? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:05:53] * valir appreciates such a documentation attempt [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:05:54] So, I'm into docs, no worry. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:06:08] Chusslove: good :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:06:13] Anyway... [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:06:13] Quit dvratil has left this server (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:06:29] At the moment, as ossi says, tr() cannot be dumped as such. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:06:36] Nor I see a reason for that. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:06:38] sure [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:06:39] i have put reading that stuff on my todo. let's see whether i'm done with that before qt5 is released ^^ [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:06:43] Join sungami_ has joined this channel (~sungami@host86-164-60-144.range86-164.btcentralplus.com). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:06:44] Quit sungami_ has left this server (Changing host). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:06:44] Join sungami_ has joined this channel (~sungami@unaffiliated/sungami). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:06:50] I added some TODOs for me for the cmake stuff: http://community.kde.org/KDE_Core/Platform_11/Buildsystem/FindFilesSurvey#TODOs [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:06:53] ossi: that would be nice [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:06:59] did I forget something ? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:07:19] So I thought of simply having a translation module in frameworks. So you choose, use that (let's call it i18n() as it is) or use tr(). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:07:37] Quit aspotashev|| has left this server (Read error: Operation timed out). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:07:41] Quit yoann21 has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:07:55] well that's the fallback plan. I don't like it (kde app vs qt app), but if there's no other choice, so be it. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:08:07] yeah, that's the thing we try to avoid [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:08:08] You choose tr() if you want to cut down on dependencies from framework, or you like Qt linguist for whatever reason. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:08:28] You choose i18n() if you don't mind dependencies from framework, or you like PO plus extras. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:08:37] at least I hope we can support both kinds of apps within KDE's translation system. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:08:44] Yes, and that. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:08:45] (scripty, translators etc) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:08:56] ugh :/ [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:09:04] just kill that friggin scriptly ... [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:09:04] Quit rajit has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:09:04] ossi: perhaps you need to delegate the work out. have someone else read the whole thing and write a small summary. then you read the summary ;-) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:09:08] otherwise it creates a stupid barrier against "let's have (say) scribus in kde git". [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:09:10] alexn: Looks good. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:09:15] sreich: lol [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:09:21] dfaure: the solution is to not have libraries with uservisible strings in them :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:09:23] Join mollach has joined this channel (~davidr@host-92-4-32-116.as43234.net). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:09:31] dfaure: For sure, Qt linguist should be supported by Scripty. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:09:33] Quit sungami has left this server (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:09:35] ossi: that's a topic to discuss, yes [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:09:51] ossi: we can't get rid of scripty, but I share your hate about .desktop commits into project repos [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:09:53] alexn: looks good, I'd like the cmake epic page to be the primary list, that's where we're going to direct people for work [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:10:01] svuorela: this isn't only about libs. E.g. if I write a small qt app, I might start "qt only" then use some kde stuff, I don't want to have to s/tr/i18n/ all of sudden. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:10:14] alexn: so make make that entries there instead when applicable [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:10:25] alexn: otherwise looks good [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:10:27] ervin: which entries ? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:10:29] dfaure: But how is that different from any other choice? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:10:30] Quit wyuka has left this server (Quit: Konversation terminated!). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:10:46] For functionality X you have libraries A and B. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:10:49] alexn: this small todo list, as entries in the table of http://community.kde.org/Frameworks/Epics/CMake [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:10:50] And you've chosen A. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:10:51] Ok. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:11:00] If you later want B, then, well, you'll have to port. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:11:03] Chusslove: right now, I can't make that app a KDE app, because translators will only work with .po files. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:11:20] dfaure: Yep, that needs to be fixed, but on the organizational level -- Scripty. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:11:22] sure, but using libkarchive shouldn't mean I have ot use i18n ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:11:28] ok, so translation we still have it as a big freaking issue, needs to be moved forward and a solution found asap [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:11:35] Chusslove: yep. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:11:42] I've that on the actions for later [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:11:43] So that's a work item. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:11:45] let's move on [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:11:52] anything else in qt5 department? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:11:53] didn't we agree that i18n was so f'ing big that it needed a whole separate meeting? :D [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:12:00] Join Pinaraf has joined this channel (~moi@2a01:e35:2e58:b9d0:6ef0:49ff:fe07:6b2c). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:12:01] ervin: yes, that's what I wanted to do (the TODO link I posted here what I'll do as result of this meeting, which includes making this page the TODO page) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:12:16] But strategicaly, there is a simple doubt now: [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:12:17] ervin: no, but I'd like to stress that this is the area where we need volunteers right now. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:12:28] Do we have 1) only i18n() 2) only tr() 3) both. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:12:33] dfaure: yeah I noticed :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:12:36] ervin: I only took notes of: deadline for merging, i18n, QPrinter, KProcess, and adding stuff that is missing from the wiki [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:12:38] I say, the only reasonable choice is 3) both. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:12:40] we need someone to look into "what does KAction have that QAction should have, and patching QAction accordingly" [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:13:05] And upgrade Scripty to fully handle tr(). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:13:06] dfaure: I can help with that [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:13:17] valir: great [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:13:18] valir: it's your then :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:13:28] dfaure: you can update the contact in the wiki now ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:13:36] Whois valir is ~valentin@cxr69-3-82-224-151-216.fbx.proxad.net (Valentin Rusu) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:13:36] Whois valir is a user on channels: #kde-devel [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:13:36] Whois valir is online via sendak.freenode.net (Vilnius, Lithuania, EU). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:13:36] Whois End of WHOIS list. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:13:43] ervin, dfaure: well, once the qt5 cloning I started 4 hours ago will finish :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:13:54] heh [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:14:16] Quit Bille_home has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:14:17] we also need someone to work on cmdlineargs in qt, with hopefully something closer to the kde4 solution than what people have been suggesting on qt5-feedback [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:14:38] (kde4 = a big static const array ; the qt5 proposal = c++ method calls to define args) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:14:59] dfaure: I'll contact you by mail to get more instructions about qt5 contributing [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:15:07] valir: deal [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:15:20] Quit lionel_ has left this server (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:15:25] Chusslove: another action item in that area is to replace QLocalizedString which is a temporary porting helper in kdelibs frameworks [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:15:30] for 'delayed translation using tr()' [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:15:41] Quit Gilde has left this server (Quit: Bis denn dann). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:15:46] but this is mostly used for kcmdlineargs (and kaboutdata) stuff, so maybe we have to fix that first [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:15:56] and look at what's left for "qlocalizedstring" afterwards, maybe nothing. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:16:44] Part PaulW2U has left this channel ("Ex-Chat"). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:16:51] you mean klocalizedstring? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:17:11] Join apol has joined this channel (~apol@44.51.219.87.dynamic.jazztel.es). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:17:21] well initially klocalizedstring, but kcmdlineargs and kaboutdata were ported to a fake "QLocalizedString" temporarily, to cut the kdecore dependency [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:17:31] but that's just a half measure, we need to fix it for real [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:17:35] Join rajit has joined this channel (~quassel@1.23.165.30). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:17:46] Quit ris has left this server (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:17:59] Join JohnFlux__ has joined this channel (~johnflux@konversation/developer/JohnFlux). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:18:16] any opinions regarding kcmdlineargs? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:18:27] the actual implementation sucks, I think everyone agrees on that. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:18:37] dfaure: what would be fantastic is to have concise "blueprints" for what needs to be done for each of these things, and then we can pair the tasks up with willing developers. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:18:38] Quit sergio has left this server (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:18:43] yep [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:18:47] we forgot to rename it to KCommandLineArguments when we did the "do not use abbreviations rule" in kde4 [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:18:47] Quit JohnFlux_ has left this server (Read error: Connection reset by peer). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:18:47] but the API? Should we try to keep the big static const or have method calls? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:18:52] dfaure: i fear too much of this exists in your head where others can't see it and so can't do the work... [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:19:04] dfaure: method calls as in? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:19:06] aseigo: this is a good example where there is no blue print yet. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:19:07] Join alexn_ has joined this channel (~alex@95-89-131-93-dynip.superkabel.de). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:19:12] aseigo: my head only says "we need to think about this" [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:19:15] dfaure: all those questions need to be somewhere [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:19:17] Quit alexn has left this server (Quit: Leaving). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:19:21] tsdgeos: addArg()? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:19:23] dfaure: it's existing nowhere yet [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:19:29] tsdgeos: setArgOptional? just guessing [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:19:49] dfaure: that's a fine starting blueprint. "research klocalizedstring, taking A, B and C into consideration." :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:19:53] yep [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:20:02] ervin: yep, I'll add "command-line-args" as a question mark in Qt_5.0_Merging [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:20:06] well i'd favor the functions then [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:20:13] but kaboutdata requires even more thinking ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:20:13] yeah, me too [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:20:23] well, that's interesting input :-) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:20:28] i was having a look at okular's const big array yesterday and it was not that easy to know what anything did [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:20:31] dfaure: the real gems you can still keep ;P [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:20:35] even it i wrote that big const array [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:20:49] what's good about method calls is that we can just use i18n/tr in them, rather than complex "delayed translation" stuff [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:20:59] (QT_TR_NOOP, I18N_NOOP, KLocalizedString) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:21:05] Join cuco has joined this channel (~elcuco@bzq-79-180-51-246.red.bezeqint.net). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:21:06] and makes it more explicit [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:21:21] as tsdgeos just said, figuring out what it does out of the array... [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:21:25] good luck with that [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:21:40] it's just less memory efficient, but I guess Waldo lived in a different era ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:22:07] ok, we can move on [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:22:21] The function approach indeed does not require it to be tied to a particular translation system. That's good. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:22:26] ok, so kdelibs split I gave an overview earlier I think [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:22:28] dfaure: this all gets recorded somewhere, right, so we don't lose it? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:22:38] aseigo: yes I'm editing the qt5 wiki [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:22:41] aseigo: well, there's IRC logs, but I'm taking notes too (see topic) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:22:43] Chusslove: oh hey.. i missed when you arrived. hi! :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:22:49] dfaure: awesome.. thanks :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:22:51] there's unfortunately not much to say about it so far, lots to do still [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:23:00] I haven't done much work on the kdelibs splitting, [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:23:01] I felt really uncomfortable when I was adding KLocalizedString to kcmdlineargs. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:23:12] because everywhere I look, I see "ah, let's first get that into qt"... [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:23:14] but a) it makes sense, cmake and qt areas are active an needed as base for the splitting [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:23:15] ervin: by looking at http://community.kde.org/Frameworks/Epics/Splitting_kdelibs it would seem as all the items are staffed [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:23:28] and b) the good news is that we found new maintainers [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:23:31] tsdgeos: now do an ls in kdelibs-frameworks :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:23:44] tsdgeos: there's a lot more frameworks, which haven't even started yet. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:23:50] dfaure: sure, that's the confusing part [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:23:55] dfaure: i see, where are those listed? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:23:57] tsdgeos: yeah, see the backlog part [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:24:04] * PovAddict has a question _o/ [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:24:05] tsdgeos: ervin made the list under the table [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:24:06] scroll down in the page [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:24:13] PovAddict: go ahead [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:24:14] would frameworks eventually get split into separate git repos too? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:24:34] I'd like to start on kde4support soon, btw, given that I'm deprecating classes along the way (e.g. KTemporaryFile/KTempDir) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:24:37] PovAddict: yes that's the end goal, but for now the bulk of the work is in kdelibs repo [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:24:44] (with emphasis on "eventually") [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:24:59] dfaure: yeah, it seems to be the right time, I was thinking about it this week as well [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:25:11] ervin: I'm missing teh kde notification frameworks collection in the 'backlog' :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:25:27] svuorela: please add it then ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:25:38] dfaure: kde4support reminds me of kdesupport. How about kde4compat ? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:25:49] i might do grunt work for a split if i someone gives me a clear direction of what is supposed to be "kguiaddons" [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:25:49] Quit fxrh has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:25:52] alexn_: do you have an idea for working around the "multiple exports" issue for now? We can't have automatic builds as long as cmake aborts :/ [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:25:54] svuorela: it's even started no? didn't you work on it? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:26:10] tsdgeos: the google spreadsheet has the class list [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:26:24] ervin: I did basics works that I later on scratched. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:26:33] alexn_: well, but kdesupport won't exist anymore ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:26:45] alexn_: and we have had kde3support forever [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:26:47] ervin: we so need to link all these resources together in the wiki :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:26:54] dfaure: can we get a link to that spreadsheet in http://community.kde.org/Frameworks/Epics/Splitting_kdelibs ? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:26:57] spreadsheet, cmake policies, ... [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:27:04] dfaure: no, it can't work as it is now. Either all libs in one export, or separate (cmake) projects [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:27:05] aseigo: well, first line of the backlog section :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:27:38] aseigo: (not for cmake though I need help there) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:27:50] alexn_: so let's have all libs in one export in the toplevel cmakelists, and a commented out line in each frameworks' cmakelist? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:28:08] decision on renaming kde4support to kde4compat? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:28:10] dfaure: yes, something like that [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:28:21] alexn_: I'm surprised because iirc the error didn't happen until I added libinqt5; but maybe that's just because other changes were made to cmakelists around that time.... [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:28:33] Quit cuco has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:28:37] Quit jpetso has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:28:41] tsdgeos: first line of the backlog section for your question [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:28:45] PovAddict: waiting for input from other people ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:28:56] Join cuco has joined this channel (~elcuco@bzq-79-180-51-246.red.bezeqint.net). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:29:29] I agreed at first, but you're right that kdesupport and kde3support coexisted for a long time without trouble [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:29:31] dfaure: it happens if libB depends on libA, libB is exported in export set B, and libA is not exported in that export set [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:29:31] ervin: i'd like to put libplasma somewhere on http://community.kde.org/Frameworks/Epics/Splitting_kdelibs ... can you help define the tier on that? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:29:40] given that everyone knows what kde3support was for, I think kde4support is just logical. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:30:01] aseigo: what are you foreseen deps? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:30:03] aseigo: tell us what it (will) depend on ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:30:12] ervin: high five ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:30:33] ervin: similar to what it is now, except things like hotstuff.. that integration is happening higher up in the stack with libplasma2 (aplication level) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:30:39] between dfaure and aseigo I feel like my brain is spitting on identi.ca or something everyone can read :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:31:14] aseigo: if you keep the dep on kconfig you go straight to tier 3 [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:31:27] (although kconfig is still a big question mark too...) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:31:28] ervin: i need to look more at QNetworkAccess and decide if we can replace KIO with it (accessing KIO via QNA on KDE platform ...) .. so still some research there [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:31:32] can somebody take over the task of taking notes on etherpad? I have to leave :/ [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:31:42] ervin: ah.. yes.. kconfig is a must. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:31:44] dfaure: yes I want, good idea [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:31:44] aseigo: and I'd argue it goes to solutions [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:31:57] i'd be fine with that. that's where it feels most "at home" to me [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:31:59] and I'm also getting lost in the recent conversation anyway [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:32:05] (mandatory runtime deps because of design choice/added value) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:32:24] complicating it a bit is that there are some things in the library that should probably be in some of the other frameworks (e.g. near kconfigxt++ ..) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:32:30] PovAddict: I try to. But I'm a bit lost as well. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:32:46] well, not the tier that libplasma is in, but the splitting of it out.. it will shed a few things ... [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:32:50] PovAddict/unormal: ask if something is unclear ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:32:53] ok.. so.. "solution" it is.. great. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:32:59] aseigo: yep, still makes it tier3 and solution for now [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:33:01] * aseigo goes to edit [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:33:04] can evolve we'll see [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:33:11] ervin: so after two clicks and having to change a browser i ended up in https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=CKTcjdgP&key=0AhQ1BhQL6D9wdGpvOHN0N0xRZVBGU1c3ZmdiaXZORUE&hl=en_US&authkey=CKTcjdgP#gid=4 that has no mention of "kguiaddons" and actually mentions we should not use "addons" as a library name [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:33:23] * bambee missed the frameworks meeting (two days ago) due to a family diner... arrffff v_v [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:33:23] this kind of conflict is confusing for us newbies [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:33:25] * dfaure thought one could use libplasma to show in-process plasmoids only, i.e. no runtime deps [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:33:36] bambee: the frameworks meeting is *right now* *here* [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:34:00] bambee: you just stepped into the meeting [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:34:01] tsdgeos: good point, old stuff, I add a task to amend it, if you find further things like that send them my way [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:34:06] OH! [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:34:49] Join zemo has joined this channel (~kvirc@unaffiliated/zemo). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:34:54] tsdgeos: it's not always easy for me to spot them [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:34:58] Quit rajit has left this server (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:35:07] ok, gotta go [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:35:10] Quit jimmy1980 has left this server (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:35:12] one more git-related comment before I leave [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:35:20] Join wyuka has joined this channel (~tirtha@kde/developer/chatterjee). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:35:24] PovAddict: ok, thx for the note efforts [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:35:30] can someone take over on PovAddict ? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:35:40] I think unormal volunteered [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:35:54] Quit cppbot has left this server (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:36:06] unormal is working on it atm, but I think he got as lost as me in the last few minutes re: libplasma and cmake exports and stuff [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:36:10] Yes I'm on it somehow ;-). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:36:17] * svuorela is also lost. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:36:24] libplasma is noted ... [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:36:24] unormal: ask when something's unclear [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:36:29] Yeah. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:36:37] cmake exports is a side discussion on how to fix the current error when compiling kdelibs-frameworks. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:36:47] Quit steleman has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:36:49] seems the transitional state (separate frameworks in a single module) creates trouble. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:36:56] ervin: ok.. http://community.kde.org/Frameworks/Epics/Splitting_kdelibs#Existing_frameworks [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:37:06] PovAddict: please poke me when you're back and teh meeting is over. git stuff. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:37:08] so we (I guess that means I) will have a temp hack for now ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:37:18] so, the goal is eventually splitting into git repos [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:37:28] would that keep the entire pre-frameworks (or pre-split) kdelibs history in each repo, with a commit that deletes everything except the one framework being kept? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:37:41] no need, qt5 shows us the way [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:37:43] Join richmoore1 has joined this channel (~rich@cpc1-with6-2-0-cust374.1-4.cable.virginmedia.com). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:37:45] Join cppbot has joined this channel (~cppbot@190.188.176.143). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:37:50] with git graft [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:37:52] yep, git graft [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:38:00] or would each framework repo only keep its relevant piece of history? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:38:05] * aseigo suspects this is another detail that needs to be written down in the 'definition of done' [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:38:06] some echo in here :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:38:07] oh graft... [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:38:15] Join ponto_ has joined this channel (~ponto@p5DC1391C.dip.t-dialin.net). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:38:26] for each framework: first import has all code as new, and with graft you can look up old history coming from the kde4 kdelibs.git [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:38:33] aseigo: that's something I've been wondering about, it it a separate task we keep for the end [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:38:43] I left it out on purpose for now [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:38:51] we don't want people to split already [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:38:57] I hope we can get some ogoffart time at some point to help us with the grafting [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:39:00] ervin: no reference to idletime in the spreadsheet either [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:39:12] what I was thinking is that if we're going to 'break repos' anyway, I could try improving the svn conversion; it's far from perfect especially regarding svn work branches [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:39:15] tsdgeos: spreadsheet covered only kdeui and kdecore [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:39:18] added to the "done" http://community.kde.org/Frameworks/Epics/Splitting_kdelibs#Existing_frameworks [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:39:18] Join steleman has joined this channel (~steleman@static-68-236-176-197.ny325.east.verizon.net). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:39:20] Quit mck182 has left this server (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:39:25] ervin: feel free to remove it or move it selwhere [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:39:28] dfaure: that graft thing sounds cool [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:39:56] ervin: then can someone add a task to really explain what tiers are, since i was told to look at the spreadsheet to learn what they meant, and that seems not to be complete [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:39:58] aseigo: yeah, I'll likely move it elsewhere at some point [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:40:08] Quit dilfridge has left this server (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:40:10] e.g. "tier idletime is this and that class" [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:40:11] PovAddict: can't be done with grafting. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:40:16] ooh.. found http://community.kde.org/KDE_Core/QtMerge [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:40:21] idletime is a framework, not a tier ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:40:25] Join dilfridge has joined this channel (~quassel@gentoo/developer/dilfridge). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:40:27] tsdgeos: no, policy page not spreadsheet for tiers [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:40:27] that should be merged / referenced fromthe Epics page if it isn't [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:40:39] tsdgeos: sorry if I said spreadsheet for that question, my bad [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:40:46] dfaure: I meant re-making kdelibs.git [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:40:48] dfaure: sure, naming mistake here [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:41:01] aseigo: i'd say some of the older KSSL classes etc. should probably be in that list too [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:41:13] PovAddict: doesn't make sense if kdelibs.git is only the kde4 code :-) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:41:22] Join jimmy1980 has joined this channel (~jimmy@112.224.2.47). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:41:27] Join ASIRINeiluj has joined this channel (~quassel@2a01:e35:1385:ff10:8e89:a5ff:fe34:b27d). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:41:35] of course it is, why would I talk about SVN otherwise? :P [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:41:43] ervin: let me ask again then, http://community.kde.org/Frameworks/Epics/Splitting_kdelibs says "Tier 1" and in there it lists "idletime". Is there a place to learn what that "idletime" means in case i want to help creating it's framework? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:42:00] PovAddict: I mean we can't re-make kdelibs.git at this point, it would break all checkouts and pending work - but you know all that already [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:42:06] tsdgeos: ah, gotcha [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:42:10] Quit JohnFlux__ has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:42:25] tsdgeos: indeed for each we should point to its current place in kdelibs, that's missing [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:42:28] adding to the list [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:42:39] dfaure: it seemed like the repo split would effectively break all checkouts too, hence a good opportunity to remake kdelibs.git [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:42:45] Quit cuco has left this server (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:43:06] PovAddict: no it won't break anything. New repos will appear, with splitted up code in them, and graft will point to the existing kdelibs.git [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:43:07] Join JohnFlux__ has joined this channel (~johnflux@konversation/developer/JohnFlux). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:43:26] so no opportunity to "remake" it -- but at the same time, I haven't seen much trouble with the way it was done. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:43:27] tsdgeos: thanks I'll go through this list again and fix it [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:43:34] ervin: cheers [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:43:56] PovAddict: but ok, sometimes when I dig into really old code I use svn in my kde3 checkout anyway ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:43:58] ervin: btw,i have a small issue with the concept of examples being included in each module. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:44:03] tsdgeos: I might even reshuffle a bit, it's really kdecore/kdeui vs the rest, work is not 100% the same [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:44:20] ervin: now might not be the time to discuss this, but i'd like to do so at some point before people start disecting kdeexamples [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:44:26] aseigo: right, could be removed from the policy, it's not mandatory at all [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:44:40] it's for those who want examples shipped together with the framework [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:44:45] on the todo list, we need to split up kio too ... I seem to have lost the preliminary list that ervin and I made in Randa :-( [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:44:54] then it has to be an examples directory [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:45:10] dfaure: it's in the backlog ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:45:22] dfaure: kbookmarks, kio-core, kio-widgets [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:45:27] dfaure: and that also gives another option, instead of grafting libplasma.git on kdelibs.git, make a new git repo containing only the history of kdelibs/plasma (and *then* you do have the opportunity to break things) and use that as a base for the new libplasma.git [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:45:31] ervin: right. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:45:47] dfaure: I left kio/kfile out though, I'm never sure how it plays with kfile [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:46:13] PovAddict: "only the history of" becomes very tricky when code has moved around. E.g. kdirwatch was in kio, then in kdecore... [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:46:34] ervin: that's part of kio-wigets I guess [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:46:37] PovAddict: I'd like to avoid having this git discussion tonight if you don't mind :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:46:42] dfaure: was my guess [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:46:45] * aseigo is quietly working on a page for the kde-runtime epic [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:47:00] PovAddict: it'll come back later anyway [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:47:07] PovAddict: anyway, to conclude, if you feel it's worth it and since you're volunteering, I'm not opposing, of course. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:47:08] aseigo: I thought that was quite simple "move to the relevant frameworks or applications, then kill" ? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:47:18] tell me about it, code has moved around a ton of times in SVN :P [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:47:30] * PovAddict leaves; things to do [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:47:37] PovAddict: cya later [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:47:37] svuorela: yeah just like splitting up kdelibs is simple :-)) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:47:59] the concept is simple, listing all there is behind is difficult :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:48:04] anyway [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:48:17] anything else on the kdelibs splitting? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:48:20] Quit renards has left this server (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:48:24] woohoo - found /home/dfaure/from_backup/KDE5_KIO_SPLITUP again [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:48:27] dfaure: one of the biggest thing in my knotificationplans is figuring out how to properly move, and be able to keep merging, changes from -runtime/knotify into the copy I make in kdelibs :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:48:48] ervin: before I lose it again :-) http://www.davidfaure.fr/2011/KDE5_KIO_SPLITUP [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:49:13] ok, so that closes the "sharing knowledge part" of this meeting [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:49:21] even though it touched more than expected :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:49:34] hopefully it gives a better understanding on where we are [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:49:38] Join meerkats has joined this channel (~aceofspad@130.Red-83-41-150.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:49:47] so now let's see what should be tackled [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:49:51] lol [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:49:54] mistake [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:49:56] sorry [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:50:16] we did a list of technical tasks along the way, but I'd like to touch a bit about the "how to get more people on board" [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:50:29] it's the kind of thing we always seem to forget to add tasks for [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:50:32] Quit grawcho has left this server (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:50:54] clearly documentation still need improvements, but it's one day old so at least we have some :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:51:05] Quit mgraesslin has left this server (Read error: Connection reset by peer). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:51:26] anybody with proposals to attract more people? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:51:52] I think it's more about getting the people who are here right now, actually involved in the actual work ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:52:00] state somewhere what needs to be done? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:52:14] blauzahl_: yep, that was the previous topic [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:52:16] give beer/cookies/etc to devs here post-code-contributions? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:52:41] organize a new KDE sprint? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:53:00] it's a possibility, a more hand down oriented one perhaps [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:53:04] (I'm aware about the next one, in Lituania) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:53:04] * unormal distributes some of the cookes Betty did right now. Still warm. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:53:05] perhaps making clear which jobs are small/medium/large so that people can get a feel for how likely it is they can manage one [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:53:49] if you state what needs to be done, then people know what they can do :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:53:57] yeah. job size. and maybe requirements 'intimate knowledge of ssl' 'normal sanity' 'knowing weirdnesses of http protocol' ... [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:54:03] then its just a matter of getting someone to do it.... [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:54:23] the issue is, nothing is "monkey work", there's quite some thinking to be done. E.g. anyone trying to make a framework from kdeui classes, ends up with issues like "so, this is using klineedit, but why? can I just use a qlineedit? do we need to get some of klineedit features into qt first? ..." [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:54:24] for newcomer a visual contact with team members could be very helpful [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:54:31] dfaure: exactly [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:55:06] also, at least concerning the kdelibs split, the hit and run approach is not really a good solution [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:55:20] Join admiral0 has joined this channel (~admiral0@adsl-ull-37-140.48-151.net24.it). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:55:23] we need people to take care long term of the framework they help create [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:55:24] I don't have a solution for that (we can't do all the thinking ahead of time, what we need is people to help us with that work, not just with the splitting) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:55:32] Quit mirage335 has left this server (Excess Flood). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:55:33] so there's nothing like a small task in fact [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:55:41] dfaure: true, but say it is identified that it can change to QLineEdit, that and any required minor API fixups /is/ a trivial job that many people could do [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:55:43] I can only say, be prepared to face such issues, and to potentially have to contribute to qt. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:55:48] dfaure: I gues you meant apol [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:55:51] ossi: ping [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:55:52] I don't know much about cmake [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:55:55] the new frameworks which strive right now are the ones with a maintainer [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:56:00] same for reviewing and cleaning up the cmake modules [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:56:18] admiral0: yes? postpone unless related to /topic [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:56:20] richmoore1: replacing one K with a Q? ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:56:20] Join yoann21 has joined this channel (~quassel@2a01:e35:2e51:cf00:224:21ff:fe64:8f80). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:56:28] richmoore1: the next lineedit in another context, will need thinking again [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:56:48] dfaure: it's the /and/ any minor tweaks to adapt to api differences i was thinking of :-) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:57:18] well yes I could spit out monkey jobs, like "port all ktempdirs to qtemporarydir using the porting instructions I'm about to write". [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:57:21] dfaure: we need to make it explicity that people can and should ask those question on frameworks-devel [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:57:23] but who is interested in that? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:57:30] dfaure: people [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:57:38] you'd be surprised :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:57:47] * valir would be interested in that [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:57:48] well I don't want break-and-run people ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:57:51] high school students in code-in? :D [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:58:13] I want people who run the unittests to make sure they haven't broken anything, and think hard about what the change could break in areas that are not unit-tested [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:58:18] dfaure: some will. but some won't. let them ease in slowly with well defined, easy to achieve (therefore rewarding) tasks that increase their confidence [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:58:23] (within the project) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:58:32] dfaure: sure.. we can make that part of the culture.. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:58:48] they post a review, we ask if they have run the tests if they don't say they have [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:58:59] eventually people just start running the unit tests.. sometimes we'll still have to ask [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:59:04] right. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:59:12] dfaure: i'll happily do porting grunt work [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:59:13] i think adding unit tests is another thing that should be relatively easy to get new people into, even if they're only testing basic stuff it's better than no unit testes [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:59:14] anyway I want to point out that "porting" is NOT the biggest part of the job here. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:59:15] it starts with giving peple achievable tasks though [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:59:16] do we have any kind of continous integration system? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:59:27] i'm more concerned about the contribute to qt part [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:59:27] yeah [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:59:36] I don't think porting is the problem we face [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:59:43] Join thiago has joined this channel (~thiago@kde/thiago). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:59:45] blauzahl_: not yet; on the plan to do so though [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:59:46] blauzahl_: yeah, build.kde.org, but it's broken by the cmake exports issue mentionned above, currently [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:59:51] blauzahl_, kind of [Sunday 04 December 2011] [22:59:55] ha [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:00:01] basically because i'd be tempted to reuse kde code creating a nasty licensing situation [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:00:09] from the current ongoing work the problem we face is more people willing to split stuff at all [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:00:12] Join mirage335 has joined this channel (~mirage335@mirage335.dyndns.org). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:00:25] tsdgeos: yep, I've rewritten everything, for the stuff I contributed to Qt, but it was for the better, I dare think ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:00:30] ervin: again.. this all comes down to well defined tasks to draw people in bit by bit [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:00:47] dfaure: rewriting comes with it's own bugs sadly :-/ [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:00:48] and so the question is: is it only about documentation? or we're missing more? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:00:51] Quit alund has left this server (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:00:55] hosting days on irc for people to come and pick up tasks, reminding people to ask questions on frameworks, grooming reviews that come in on reviewboard.. the usual. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:00:56] aseigo: yeah, so documentation [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:00:58] ervin: we're missing timelines [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:01:01] no, not just documentation [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:01:03] tsdgeos: yep. But Qt requires auto tests, and Windows support ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:01:04] human interaction. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:01:16] tsdgeos: so my new qt5 code is often less buggy than the old kde4 code. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:01:21] aseigo: and yeah, regular "volunteer days" [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:01:28] aseigo: don't type so fast ffs :p [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:01:34] reach out to people (blog, email, irc..), encourage them (/pester them ;) to get involved, hold their hand if they need it [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:01:34] dfaure: pfff, i only do Windows code if paid for [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:01:41] i know that personally even though i'm doing some more complex stuff in qt, when i want a break, i fix an easy bug or make something better tested [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:01:45] and yeah, timelines. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:01:50] we need to set some goals for that i think [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:01:51] Join alund has joined this channel (~sredna@cpe.atm2-0-79204.svgnxx2.customer.tele.dk). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:01:54] tsdgeos: then you can't contribute to Qt5 (at least in cases where windows code paths are needed, like I had in QTemporaryDir) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:02:04] otherwise people just think "ah, i have lots of time to wait yet" and we all stand around looking at each other ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:02:22] yeah deadlines make stuff done. E.g. look at all that happened in the last 2 days ;-) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:02:32] indeed [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:02:32] tsdgeos: you can always ask to somebody to do it (the windows bits) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:02:54] at least we don't have to do symbian bits now [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:03:09] we don't necessarily need "frameworks 5 is done" deadlines, but we should have "kdecore must be completed by ..." .. ervin: you know how to do those iterations better than i sure do :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:03:12] richmoore1: hehe [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:03:17] valir: btw, where do you live? (country ..) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:03:24] france [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:03:34] aseigo: I know how when I know the amount of people I have :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:03:35] aseigo: he lives in car distance from randa [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:03:43] aseigo: lyon, france [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:03:51] ah, lyon.. not so far away then. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:04:08] svuorela: car distance is a relative term ;-) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:04:11] aseigo: here it just sounds random to claim: current bulk of frameworks done by the end of the month [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:04:12] well, by canada terms. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:04:13] no, it's not so far [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:04:25] aseigo: could do that and readjust depending who shows up though [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:04:44] ervin: we need to split it up for sure.. e.g. focus on getting kdecore (+ whatever we feel is reasonable) done [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:04:54] and pace it based on the people we have right now, and use that as a way to get more people involved [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:05:09] build small to big [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:05:24] Quit akreuzkamp has left this server (Quit: Konversation terminated!). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:05:32] Join thorgt has joined this channel (~yarly@95.79.17.45). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:05:52] I'll push the first bulk already started, and add as we go [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:06:28] Join apaku_ has joined this channel (~apaku@hmbg-5f7636f7.pool.mediaWays.net). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:06:42] we need all the currently in progress done before starting more [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:06:51] * aseigo nods [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:07:06] dfaure: could you do something similar for the qt5 contrib once you filled up the list? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:07:09] so. . documentation, a developer outreach effort and some timelines. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:07:18] dfaure: we'll have to have the same beat rythm [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:07:26] monthly or bi-monthly [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:07:27] valir: you're about 350km from me then .... [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:07:28] ervin: do what? make up dates? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:07:42] bi-monthly might be too aggressive with a pure volunteer base [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:07:54] aseigo: exactly, I know you're in Zurich [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:08:03] dfaure: for dates we just need to decide on the rythm :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:08:12] dfaure: it's more about what goes in each iteration [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:08:17] ervin: qt5 stuff happens rather in parallel, than in sequence [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:08:33] well ok my own stuff was in sequence, but hopefully others were working in parallel ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:08:38] valir: ~3hrs by train.. nice.. we should find somewhere/when to meet up :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:08:44] valir: You still need to pickup your Pyjama from Randa so let's do another small sprint there ;-). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:08:47] dfaure: well, not saying we'll do one at a time [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:08:49] aseigo: cool [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:08:51] * aseigo notes that marco martin is coming up tomorrow and staying for ~a week [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:09:01] unormal: good point! [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:09:08] dfaure: it's about saying X, Y and Z will be done during current iteration [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:09:17] X', Y', Z' in the next one [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:09:27] based on the amount of people doing stuff [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:09:36] Quit apaku has left this server (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:09:50] ok, I guess the good thing about it is that it will requiring ping'ing those people who are supposed to be working on stuff ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:09:59] you can't really say "it's all in parallel" :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:10:10] Quit Defense|Twin has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:10:21] it degragates in current situation "we have all that load of things, they need being done well sometime" [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:11:00] Quit apaku_ has left this server (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:11:14] * aseigo remembers another question he needs to send to frameworks. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:11:25] ervin: ok, so we add a planned month column? E.g. QLockFile -> December, QSaveFile -> January, thiago's stuff -> I need to ask him, etc. ? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:11:26] dfaure: btw, regarding the kdelibs splitting [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:11:38] dfaure: it'd help if libinqt5 was more up to date [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:11:44] aseigo: cannot go next week to zurich - lots of work in "real" job [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:11:54] dfaure: when something is in progress in the qt5 merge, it should be in libinqt5 [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:12:10] the current "let's wait for it to be in qt5" just stall the efforts for too long [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:12:15] ervin: I did that with qstandardpaths, and that meant it was quickly out of date with api changes etc. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:12:27] also I don't want to see people add "wishful thinking" stuff to inqt5 [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:12:31] e.g. QLocalizedString :-) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:12:37] it's better to have them early and have small breakage to port [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:12:40] Quit piggz has left this server (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:12:46] dfaure: you're the gateway to libinqt5 [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:13:09] dfaure: you coordinate the merging effort, so you know where is the wishful thinking and what's really worked on and has api [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:13:10] Quit JohnFlux__ has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:13:15] I guess the truth is in between, yeah, we could add to libinqt5 once it's reasonably sure that it -will- go into qt5, and we're in the phase of handling the nitpicking ;-) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:13:23] yeah [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:13:30] okay. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:13:40] for instance karchive is stuck on ksavefile and kmimetype forever [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:13:53] which raises the question for qmimetype ... the code is ready, but I'm not sure what will finally happen about it :/ [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:13:54] Quit verbalshadow has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:14:04] Join JohnFlux__ has joined this channel (~johnflux@konversation/developer/JohnFlux). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:14:09] I can't set a goal of having it done in a month if we're not a bit more lax on libinqt5 [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:14:12] Join verbalshadow has joined this channel (~verbalsha@c-75-71-11-221.hsd1.co.comcast.net). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:14:20] mariusso is working on getting a legal solution for "code contributed by multiple people". [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:14:56] but okay, competing efforts are now dead, so we can be quite confident that this will be the qt mime solution.... [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:15:04] yep [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:15:05] * alexn_ waves to valir :-) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:15:12] I have to leave now, guys [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:15:20] dfaure: just to get it right: libinqt5 is an intermediary library to prepare move stuff to qt5? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:15:29] valir: no, not at all [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:15:35] Join JackyAlcine has joined this channel (~desktop@174.141.212.174). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:15:35] waves back to alexn_ [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:15:39] Quit JackyAlcine has left this server (Changing host). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:15:39] Join JackyAlcine has joined this channel (~desktop@sii/jackyalcine). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:15:43] valir: it's a temporary lib containing stuff that *is* in qt5 [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:15:51] so that we can use that stuff already [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:16:04] ervin's point todaywas that could have stuff that "is almost" in qt. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:16:09] oh, we should stick with qt4 then? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:16:13] Join apaku has joined this channel (~apaku@hmbg-4d068a20.pool.mediaWays.net). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:16:15] for now yes [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:16:29] and use libinqt5 to add to qt4? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:16:44] aseigo: so, better doc, volunteer days and timelines [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:16:52] valir: yes [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:17:02] alexn_: we'll need timelines in cmake land as well I think [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:17:09] not only kdelibs split and qt merge [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:17:23] valir: using qt5 would make contributing to frameworks even harder, for now. Although for "getting stuff into qt" you need qt5 of course ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:17:24] dfaure: ah, ok. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:17:52] dfaure: that sounds a little confusing, but I think I'll get used to it [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:18:05] anyone sees anything which needs tackling? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:18:10] dfaure: by now, the init repos script finally finished cloning qt5 [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:18:17] valir: well it's easy : we're not porting to qt5 (yet), we're working on making kdelibs modular ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:18:35] valir: you only need qtbase.git ;-) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:18:38] dfaure: by adding things that will only be in qt5 [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:19:01] i wonder if sometime that new code that we end up adding to qt5 won't be qt4 compatible anymore [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:19:18] Nick dashavoo_ is now known as dashavoo. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:19:31] dfaure: ok, I see [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:19:33] Quit Weaselweb has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:19:48] ok, everyone, let's move to the last part where we list tasks and start distributing them :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:19:51] ervin: So last part? Distributing tasks? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:19:53] tsdgeos: sure it might not always be possible, but for QStandardPath and QTemporaryDir it worked out [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:20:06] I don't think we'll get much more out of this meeting tonight [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:20:09] tsdgeos: I only had to fold one new-in-qt5 qdir method into qtemporarydir. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:20:10] Quit skelet has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:20:12] Quit alexn_ has left this server (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:20:16] so: [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:20:40] Quit apaku has left this server (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:20:45] * Add CMake ECM review to the done definition of the splitting kdelibs epic (alexn) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:21:09] * Add "warn k-f-d on CMake API changes" to the done definition of the CMake epic (alexn) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:21:40] * Add a page on porting to frameworks (everyone longer term, started by steveire for the cmake stuff) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:22:03] * Review the Qt 5.0 Merge epic and make sure everything needed is in the list (dfaure) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:22:17] Quit esben has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:22:37] Quit lazy_ has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:22:45] * Organize a meeting to device what's needed to move i18n forward (ossi, Chusslove, more?) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:23:22] * Work on KAction vs QAction topic on Qt 5.0 merge allocated to valir (dfaure or valir to update wiki page) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:23:33] wiki page already updated [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:23:37] * Start kde4support (dfaure) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:23:48] http://community.kde.org/Frameworks/Epics/New_Runtime_Organization <-- has that coming together [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:23:54] * Find a volunteer for KCmdLineArgs [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:24:00] Join stikonas has joined this channel (~and@bermondsley.girton.cam.ac.uk). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:24:00] Quit stikonas has left this server (Changing host). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:24:00] Join stikonas has joined this channel (~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:24:27] * Update the class by class spreadsheet to make it less confusing to newcomers (ervin with help from tsdgeos) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:24:28] (or at least check if the proposals from qt5 contributors are moving forward) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:24:35] ervin, dfaure: I can take care about that too, after QAction stuff [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:24:38] Join lazy_ has joined this channel (~quassel@host83-80-dynamic.37-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:25:16] * Add for the items in the backlog in the kdelibs splitting epic where they exist right now in kdelibs to help newcomers wanting to help (ervin) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:25:20] * dfaure sends info to valir about qt5 development lists [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:25:21] I could also give a helping hand for some kde -> qt5 contribution, if needed. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:25:21] valir: KCmdLineArgs? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:25:32] Join apaku has joined this channel (~apaku@hmbg-4d069f26.pool.mediaWays.net). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:25:33] unormal: yes [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:25:43] Added. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:25:49] * Figure out how/when to deal with the git split in the kdelibs split epic (ervin) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:26:27] Join apaku_ has joined this channel (~apaku@hmbg-5f764fd3.pool.mediaWays.net). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:26:32] * Organize volunteer days to attract volunteers (any taker? those days will require presence of ervin, dfaure and alexn to be effective... they coordinate the three active epics after all) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:26:50] * Set goals and timelines within the current epics (dfaure, ervin, alexn) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:27:03] that's all I had noted here [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:27:08] * valir just added himself on the wiki page [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:27:18] if you feel I missed something of importance please let us know now :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:27:26] Quit legnaleurc has left this server (Read error: Connection reset by peer). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:27:26] Have a small task from the discussion: *Document what a "Tier" is. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:27:30] djszapi: great, want to start with cmdlineargs then, while valir starts on qaction? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:27:46] unormal: it's already documented in policies page [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:27:51] ervin: yes, i'm happy to organize that [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:27:55] (volunteer days) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:28:00] dfaure, djszapi: that would be np for me [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:28:02] aseigo: I knew it ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:28:05] unormal: awesome :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:28:10] ervin: well, i have to be good for SOMETHING right? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:28:25] aseigo: yep, you rock at blogging :-) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:28:26] aseigo: blogging? :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:28:30] valir: LOL [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:28:42] aseigo: (or so I'm told, I don't have time to read blogs) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:28:45] Join rdale_ has joined this channel (~richardd@5.Red-88-17-125.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:28:46] Join legnaleurc has joined this channel (~quassel@2001:288:3001:113:16da:e9ff:fe96:b6a2). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:28:50] aseigo: the "any taker?" was a bait for you on that one really :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:28:51] * aseigo is on line 27 of 100 for that #(*$(ing kde-runtime spreadsheet [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:28:53] dfaure: lol [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:29:07] ervin: and it worked. well played, sire, well played. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:29:11] er, sir [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:29:20] ervin: for timelines, let's talk tomorrow, it's getting late [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:29:32] dfaure: sure, never meant to do that *now* [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:29:40] dfaure: I'm just distributing tasks ;) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:29:48] so, I guess that concludes it [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:29:53] thanks everyone [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:29:59] thanks a lot ervin [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:30:11] Quit apaku has left this server (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:30:21] thanks ervin, bye everybody [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:30:21] So what about the etherpad thing? Saving somewhere? Or locally? (I never really worked with etherpad before) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:30:30] Thx ervin and all! [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:30:36] unormal: please send the content my way [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:30:45] copy it over to the wiki? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:30:52] unormal: I'll send a mail with the log, those notes, tomorrow evening [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:31:21] svuorela: hm, maybe even better indeed [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:31:30] ervin at kde dot org? [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:31:44] unormal: change of plan, start a Frameworks/Meetings section in community wiki [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:31:49] Ok. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:31:56] put the notes in a subpage based on the date [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:32:01] link to it from meetings [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:32:07] link meetings from Frameworks [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:32:12] * valir waiting for next aseigo blog entry (I'm a long time reader of these) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:32:16] and I'll pick it up tomorrow when working on the email [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:32:18] the important question is if epics@kde.org should go to dfaure, ervin and alexn so they have a cool email alias to use [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:32:22] dfaure, valir okay [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:32:55] richmoore1: I won't be able to sleep until I have an answer to this question I'm sure :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:33:12] :-) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:33:14] valir: i have some good ones coming up this week ... "frameworks 5 meeting", "screencast 4.8", "make, play, live" [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:33:19] or at least, i like to think that they are good [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:33:20] Quit floe__ has left this server (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:33:28] Join floe__ has joined this channel (~flo@e179003255.adsl.alicedsl.de). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:33:40] aseigo: well, they are good for me :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:33:52] Whois djszapi is ~lpapp@kde/developer/lpapp (Papp Laszlo) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:33:52] Whois djszapi is a user on channels: #kde-devel [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:33:52] Whois djszapi is online via card.freenode.net (Washington, DC, USA). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:33:52] Whois djszapi has been idle for 52 seconds. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:33:52] Whois djszapi has been online since 2011-12-01 10:21:35. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:33:52] Whois djszapi is logged in as djszapi. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:33:52] Whois End of WHOIS list. [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:34:05] yay! :) [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:34:40] Quit apaku_ has left this server (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:34:54] Topic You set the channel topic to "KDE SC 4.8.0 rc1 tagging 19 Dec | KDE SC 4.7 is *DONE* | http://techbase.kde.org/Schedules | Many modules have moved to git: https://projects.kde.org". [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:35:05] Quit BrummbQ has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:35:07] good night everyone [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:35:14] sleep well [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:35:21] night [Sunday 04 December 2011] [23:35:30] gnite